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This is a message that I posted today to SBF, the Soap Bubble Fanciers Yahoo Group (RIP), that relates to the difficulties of sharing recipes -- since our primary ingredients can vary in their 'freshness'.

I have had some interesting conversations with people about their success or disappointment with the eGoo recipe and thought that I would share a few tidbits. The issue-at-hand actually relates to other recipes, too. In short, it is pretty clear that the various PEOs that we have (WSR301 and J-Lube) are in unknown states that effects how much PEO is really needed to get a particular result. The method of mixing definitely has an impact on the result -- not just how the polymer is hydrated (as Thommy and I demonstrated a couple of years ago) but also when it is added to the mix.

It turns out that EGoo's super-concentrated preparation seems to amplify any variation in PEO strength. It is clear from what a couple of reliable correspondents have told me that if you mix a diluted solution that has the same total amounts of ingredients as diluted EGoo, you get a different result than if you mix as directed in the recipe (by creating a very concentrated solution and then diluting).

Some people are needing more PEO than I recommend while others are needing quite a bit less. This relates to an issue that Steven and Bryce first brought up a couple of years ago when it looked like there might be two different 'vintages' of J-Lube and what Dustin and others have reported more recently with batches of PolyOx from Teacher's Source (for which Teacher's Source can not be faulted).

Anyway, a couple of things are clear:

When PEO starts to degrade, it ends up in a very stable state that can keep for many years and still be very effective (but more of it needs to be used).

  • The degradation can be subtle and slow -- and if one is experimenting a lot with different formulae, you might not even know that it is happening.
  • Mixing method and order have an influence on how PEO behaves in a mix. I think that there is pretty strong evidence that if you mix up a fully-diluted water/PEO mix and add detergent later that you get a different result (not better or worse but different) than if you use a minimal amount of water before adding the detergent and then dilute the rest of the way later.

This latter point is of great interest to me -- as the behavior of some concentrates with other polymers also display this tendency. My working theory is that there may be some sort of cross-linking or something that can happen when the detergent/polymer solution is concentrated enough but not when it is more diluted. This may be a reaction between the polymers in our detergents and the polymer that we are adding.In some cases, the reaction may be beneficial while in others (such as the guar concentrates that have been discussed recently) can be quite detrimental.

The PEO issue is something that I am hoping can be addressed by figuring out an easy way that we can figure out 'equivalency' so that people can adjust the amount of PEO in a recipe to get the results achieved by the recipe maker.

Anyway, food for thought.

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